GO 740 LIVE traffic service?

[mikealder]

With respect to the differences between Plus, RDS and HD Traffic systems you need to take a few things into consideration:
The HD Traffic will only flag up an incident if the traffic at a specific location is travelling slower than is considered normal for that stretch of road at the time of day and week it occurs.
The TomTom knows what the usual road speed should be from the IQ Routes data, if a road is usually slow then the device should avoid it by planning a route using the IQ data.
If a hold up slows the traffic down to a speed slower than IQ data then it will flag it as a traffic issue. The Plus and RDS systems don't rely upon the IQ data so you will see more incidents on screen - Mike

 

[gatorguy]

Do you see the flow data on the UK version, whether it factors into the route or not? In other words, traveling the A-1, part of your computed route, is there any green flow data, or just yellow/red, or none at all? How about when using simply as a traffic monitor, no route set. Is flow coverage fairly thorough, or pretty much restricted to "incidents"?

 

[mikealder]

Without a route set you get no warnings of traffic as the device doesn't know what you want it to do, that said you do get the yellow/ orange and red road surface on the map when driving through what is seen as a restriction should you be driving through a road section the device knows is slow.

With a route planned the device should offer a re-route (depending upon settings) when it encounters issues, the HD system is considerably better than the RDS-TMC from what I have experianced in the UK over the past 8 or 9 months that I have had access to the system - Mike

 

[gatorguy]

Do you ever see green (good flow) either while navigating or monitoring? That in itself would help answer a remaining question I have about TT's integration of traffic with IQR.

 

[mikealder]

Depending upon the colour scheme I decide to use I can have a green route, but this isn't affected by the traffic data AFAIK it is the normal overlay, you only get to see issues that affect road speed on the navigation screen - Mike

 

[gatorguy]

Understood, but still, do you ever get a notice of GOOD (green hiighlighted path) flow. I have a very specific reason for asking that. I have never seen any green/good highway flow markings, leading me to believe that only detrimental traffic issues are shown, specifically those that add travel time to the IQR historical expectation. Otherwise there is no flow/traffic speed indication at all. Is that correct?

 

[mikealder]

If the route isn't showing any incidents then it can be considered as "Green" the device will only report problems rather than offering advice on routes without issues - I don't see any point in informing a driver that the device is using a route that is considered to be "clear" it performs this function by default - bear in mind though that incidents can still occur directly in front of you prior to the HD service knowing about it.

In these instances you sit in the car until the incident is cleared and watch the road colour on your nav unit turn from green to yellow, orange and then red. Your ETA will also increase accordingly, if you are on a motorway without an exit available you just sit there watching the device (got the tee shirt for this one on more than a single occasion) - Mike

 

[gatorguy]

Thanks Mike. I wasn't questioning the wisdom of the traffic integration or display, concerned only whether clear path GREEN is ever shown. If I read your reply correctly, sometimes. Trying just to determine if clear paths can be construed in non-routing situations, i.e, simply monitoring traffic. So if the M1 is congested at 2pm on a Wednesday, but not exceeding what IQR predicts for that segment at that time, no flow indication (grey) will always be shown. And if the M1 is unexpectedly clear when IQR would predict congestion, then it will show green rather than gray. Did I understand correctly?

I understand it's unlikely that an unexpectedly clear highway would be considered instead of the IQR historically recommended route. An extraordinary/reactive incident would of course trump a predictive recommendation.

 

[NorFowl]

Another consideration is future developments: Every 740 device sold will improve LIVE accuracy. On the flip side, Inrix just reported a 3X expansion of coverage. If that makes it to PLUS (it hasn't yet) then that would mean an even larger gap for LIVE data to catch.

Yikes! If the only source of LIVE data comes from LIVE devices (am I reading you correctly?) it's going to be a LONG time before the quantity of info gets close to that which is available now through the other sources... one LIVE device on the market now, and maybe two more soon? Not very encouraging!

If we combine that with Michael's assumptions below, which sound reasonable to me, that just makes the odds of LIVE being useful even lower.

One of the problems I think we'll have with LIVE traffic data collection is that I believe consumers tend to only use their GPS when they don't know how to get somewhere. When people are travelling in a familar area, their LIVE devices won't be on, and won't be reporting any speed data. To gain the most benefit, people will need to stop thinking of these devices as standalone or receive-only, and realize that they actually collect and transmit data that benefits others.

And the part above I put in green? You can't count on very many "average consumers" doing that.

Looks to me like mvl's package of a non-LIVE device plus PLUS it the optimal setup today, if traffic accuracy is a primary concern.

 

[gatorguy]

I don't know if it's ever been determined what or how much data, if any, flows back from our 740's to TomTom. Could simply be traditional anonymous mapshare type travel stats rather than current speed/location data such as that mined from cellphone position/movement done in Europe thru VodaPhone. Expecting to get much quantified data simply from TomTom live devices, enough to reveal a dependable pattern over a wide area, is probably too optimistic. My guess is very little data flowing from live devices in the UK is actually used in HDTraffic reports. And there's a lot more connected TomTom's in a more concentrated area than we'll see here for quite awhile. Position data from other connected TomTom's here in the States will not make or break any future HDTraffic offering IMO. A much bigger pool of information will be needed than just a few thousand TomTom's.

 

[mvl]

Gator,

In this link tomtom says that they do not broadcast slowness that is predicted by IQroutes.

They only broadcast incidents when slowness exceeds IQdata. They point to a 120km/h speed limit, when IQ2 predicts 90km/h. They see 89 km/h and broadcast nothing as they don't consider flow that matches IQ as an exception.

I suspect they implement the same way in the US. My assumption is that they have an HD server in the US that uses the same protocols with the LIVE devices, and it is tuned for data without the Vodafone cell probes.

 

[mvl]

Yikes! If the only source of LIVE data comes from LIVE devices (am I reading you correctly?) it's going to be a LONG time before the quantity of info gets close to that which is available now through the other sources... one LIVE device on the market now, and maybe two more soon? Not very encouraging!

Trafficcast has fleet inputs and road sensor inputs, it's not just sourced on LIVE devices. I'm actually watching a major accident in Boston right now on 93 northbound, just south of the city.

I'm comparing LIVE data (routes.tomtom.com, Yahoo maps trafficcast, and PLUS data). So far PLUS and LIVE picked up the incident before Yahoo did. I'm comparing both to a real time webcam feed on smartraveler.com

 

[gatorguy]

Yes, I know they don't show flow that matches (within an unknown range) what IQR data includes for that day/time. But using your example of IQR predicted flow at 90km/h, what I want to know is what do UK devices show if the actual flow is at 120 km/h. Green or still nothing? No clear answer yet. I know what US740's show is nothing. No green has ever shown on my traffic map yet. So if predicted IQR2 traffic speeds on A1A in Southern Maine at 4pm on Wednesday is 32 mph, but actually moving at 49, there is no indication of faster than expected travel. Do true HD UKx40 devices behave the same? Any indications that a typically congested and to be avoided section is really moving very smoothly and quickly, and should be considered as a travel option?

 

[mvl]

Score one for LIVE traffic:

I watched an accident in Boston (93 north in Dorchester) via a realtime traffic webcams (smartraveler.com). I then saw how it was reported with PLUS traffic (via OMG), LIVE traffic (via routes.tomtom.com), and yahoo maps traffic.

6:10 - This is when I first looked. The 10 mile backup was in full swing, the delay was fully reported in LIVE and PLUS, but curiously no report on yahoo maps. LIVE: 1, PLUS: 1, Yahoo: 0

6:15 - PLUS reported incident cleared and erased all the traffic on the road. The report was probably accurate but the erasure wasn't, since the webcams showed the full traffic (it was just starting to clear up). LIVE traffic and yahoo traffic showed actual congestion. LIVE: 2, PLUS: 1, Yahoo: 1

6:20 - LIVE showed congestion remaining and moving beyond the accident, there were no webcams up there, but all the cars that could now pass the accident so I suspect the congestion moved further down the road. This is either real data or traffic dynaflow predictive modeling at work. PLUS still showed clear flow and only an "incident cleared" at the site of the accident, although it started again showing red flow about 5 miles before the accident. The webcams still showed full stopped congestion. Yahoo showed no changes from 6:15 LIVE: 3, PLUS: 1, Yahoo 1

6:25 - The webcams showed a clear road at the accident site. LIVE and Yahoo matched this, showing a clear road at the accident site, but congestion about 5 miles prior to the accident, as the people at the end of the 10 mile backup must not have cleared out yet. PLUS showed congestion again on the entire road (before and after the accident), as if it disregarded it's "accident cleared" announcement and again showed flow data, but the flow data was about 10 minutes late. LIVE: 4, PLUS: 1, Yahoo 2

6:45 - LIVE and Yahoo showing a fully clear road, matches the webcam. PLUS showing a backup 5 miles before the accident site. It's as if PLUS flow data is 15 minutes late. Final score LIVE: 5, PLUS: 1, Yahoo: 3

In this example LIVE was the clear winner with amazingly accurate data. I actually saw a new accident pop up in Boston, Live mentioned it about 10 min before Yahoo, and no mention on PLUS yet. No cameras at this location so I can't confirm the "truth".

 

[Michael Quinlan]

Since the 740 LIVE is the only US device to support LIVE traffic, and it also supports IQ Routes, it makes sense to exclude congestion data that is consistent with IQ Routes data from the data sent to the 740 devices. Do all devices that support PLUS traffic also support IQ Routes? If not, congestion data that is consistent with IQ Routes must be included so that devices not supporting IQ Routes can benefit from the information.

MVL's report of real observations of traffic compared to data shown by LIVE, PLUS and Yahoo is really the only way to gauge the reliability of the traffic data. Thanks MVL.

...PLUS traffic (via OMG)...

Huh? What's OMG in this context?

 

[mvl]

Since the 740 LIVE is the only US device to support LIVE traffic, and it also supports IQ Routes, it makes sense to exclude congestion data that is consistent with IQ Routes data from the data sent to the 740 devices.

And don't forget tomtom is paying the LIVE data bill, so they don't want to send too much info like they do with PLUS.

Do all devices that support PLUS traffic also support IQ Routes?

No, the x10 and the one 2nd edition support PLUS but not IQroutes.

Huh? What's OMG in this context?

Operate my GO - surprising plus traffic works there via the internet, as if it was using bluetooth. LIVE doesn't work this way.

 

[gatorguy]

MVL, I'll watch Monday to see if the 740 traffic and routes.tomtom traffic are moving in lockstep, or if one shows any delay compared to the other. Hopefully traffic on the 740 is just as current or better than online.

 

[mikealder]

what I want to know is what do UK devices show if the actual flow is at 120 km/h. Green or still nothing? No clear answer yet.

You get no indication if traffic is flowing at or above the IQ2 road speed - Mike

 

[gatorguy]

Thanks Mike. That's the exact answer I needed.

 

[NorFowl]

Score one for LIVE traffic:

Interesting!
Thanks for the "real-time controlled study lab work" there Prof MVL.: That kind of comparison is very handy, and a fine way to get some toe-to-toe comparisons.

Ditto for Mr. Gator too:

I'll watch Monday to see if the 740 traffic and routes.tomtom traffic are moving in lockstep

I'm definitely Standing By for that info.

It would be nice if the TomTom folks would put out a short White Paper on the technologies employed. They know what it is, and we have to deduce by brute force.