Start2 is rubbish, why has the One being discontinued!

[TanyaD]

Im airing my grievances on here because if you send it to TomTom Customer Services, you just get back "sorry you are not happy with your product but there is nothing we can do".

I had a One that I bought last year that I loved and it was stolen :-( So went to replace it and nowhere stocks the One model anymore but was told that Start2 has superceded it and is the identical product. Now, you dont get the option to have these things demo-ed in stores so I bought it. Well, its rubbish! And whats worse, is it cost me the same as my One and has far less functionality! I used to look at the direction list and as someone who drives in London every day, I know certain points to avoid so want to change that part of the route. Guess what? You cant! You cant even select to avoid motorways! Small but very useful thing to me is that the One had a headphone jack so I could use it on my bike and listen to the instructions. No more, thats gone too!

I absolutely hate this product, the argument is that its simplified, well why not have settings that allow you to say whether you want advanced control or idiot, I mean simple, control?????!!!!

I hate this product so much and get so irritated with its lack of functionality that I have almost thrown it out the window out of sheer frustration! If anyone wants to swap their One for my Start2, please let me know. But this is the last time I buy a TomTom and the last time I buy a Satnav without a demo :-( i still cant believe the cheek of TomTom selling a later version of a product that is inferior to the last at the same money :-S

 

[dhn]

Welcome to TTF.

Yep, the series 2 models are dumbed down with the 'EasyMenu' installed.

Do look for an application update in the next couple of weeks that may provide more user options.

 

[TanyaD]

Appears that Im not the only one who has had an older version of the product and got a new one and hates it:

TomTom XL IQ Routes Edition 2 UK and RoI Satellite: Amazon.co.uk: Electronics & Photo

Hmmmm, who are the product developers who decided to treat us like idiots?!

 

[dhn]

No question in the mind of many that it was a dumb move to provide models with the 'EasyMenu' interface

A partial resolution is forthcoming....

 

[TanyaD]

Thumbs up to John Lewis who gave me my money back!

 

[mikealder]

That still leaves you in a position needing a sat nav though.....

One point to consider is that none of the current TomTom products are fitted with an audio line out socket, the x50 models can be equipped with a Line Out facility but only after you have purchased an accessory mount for the unit to sit on. The mount supplied with the unit doesn't have the extra connectivity you would need.

I suggest you take a trip to a local Halfords store to have a look through whats available, as at least they will let you try the units in store and have quite a selection of devices on display from TomTom, Garmin and a few others - If you are considering a specific make/ model post back with any questions, it doesn't have to be TomTom (despite the forum name) for the question to get answered as some of us use Garmin as well as TT Hardware - Mike

 

[TanyaD]

Thats the thing isnt it, that manufacturers dont consider how their product may be used in a way not originally intended and the headphone jack is now a deal breaker for me because with the price of satnavs for motorbikes, it allows me to use it on my motorbike or bicycle by just listening to the instructions. So by not supplying a headphone jack, they have lost a customer.

I looked at the Garmins but cant find one that has the equivalent of IQ routes, headphone jack and allows you to manipulate the details of your route so I guess I have no choice now but to hit ebay and find myself an old TomTom One. I would prefer to have something new but beggars cant be choosers and I want something I actually like using rather than something that is a source of frustration.

 

[mikealder]

Consider a TomTom refurb 730 or 530 as these have the necessary socket and are a far better specified device than any of the One product line, only the 530 is currently showing stock see Here - Mike

 

[telemike]

There is a trick to replace the Easymenu on USA models, perhaps it will work for Start2?

 

[dhn]

It should.

The link to the thread at gpspassion is here:
GpsPasSion Forums - [TIP] Enabling POI Alerts on TomTom Start/Ease

 

[techguy378]

Garmin GPS units are regarded by most as the most advanced GPS units ever invented and they have an EasyMenu interface. If the EasyMenu interface is so bad then why are Garmin GPS units with a virtually identical interface outselling TomTom GPS units by such a large margin in the USA?

 

[dhn]

Not sure about the first part of your statement; nevertheless, Garmin, which does make a fine product, got there first in the US. TomTom is the largest seller by far in Europe.

Also, since from the beginning, TT users have had more choices in their menus, it's quite a shock for users to now see a restricted menu on some models.

Garmin users, who never had that flexibility to begin with, aren't bothered by it.

 

[canderson]

Garmin GPS units are regarded by most as the most advanced GPS units ever invented and they have an EasyMenu interface. If the EasyMenu interface is so bad then why are Garmin GPS units with a virtually identical interface outselling TomTom GPS units by such a large margin in the USA?

As dhn notes, the sales differences are regional issues. The comparison doesn't fly in Europe.

That said, you need to understand that there are users who were drawn TO the TomTom units as a result of the availability of certain features that weren't being made available by Garmin. When these users go to upgrade their GPS units, they have already built the availability of those features into their personal "use model", and are really dismayed to pick up a TomTom brand replacement and find that the things they had found useful before have suddenly disappeared.

There are also users whose use model makes the Garmin units much more useful to them. For example, for users in need of some sort of custom mapping, the TomTom overlay method is a mess. TomTom really doesn't support alternative maps, and has never given up the magic formula required to create them. On the other hand, Garmin units readily accept custom maps from a wide variety of sources. If Garmin suddenly dropped that feature, you'd hear the same hue and cry from their users (only louder!)

When a manufacturer has taken care to create features to differentiate their product in a very competitive market, and captured market share as a result, they need to very carefully consider any major changes to their feature set that remove previous functionality. Sadly, it's often the case that the manufacturers have no idea which of their features is a "gem" to some segment of their market that will jump ship if the feature is lost. Once a product is out the door, there's often very little research done to discover how the user base is actually going about putting the devices to work.

 

[Entropy]

There are also users whose use model makes the Garmin units much more useful to them. For example, for users in need of some sort of custom mapping, the TomTom overlay method is a mess. TomTom really doesn't support alternative maps, and has never given up the magic formula required to create them. On the other hand, Garmin units readily accept custom maps from a wide variety of sources. If Garmin suddenly dropped that feature, you'd hear the same hue and cry from their users (only louder!)

Garmin has only supported custom maps on a limited subset of their trail-oriented devices (such as my Oregon 300) for less than a year.

Or are you referring to the existence of cgpsmapper? That's not a "feature" of Garmin units, other than the fact that Garmin has used the same map format (with occasional updates) for longer than TomTom has existed as a company, enabling the format to be reverse engineered. Garmin has never done anything to support third-party map creation efforts. I'm sure that if Stanislaw Kozicki lived in a country where the DMCA or a similar law existed, Garmin would have abused it to shut down his cgpsmapper efforts.

 

[canderson]

Garmin has only supported custom maps on a limited subset of their trail-oriented devices (such as my Oregon 300) for less than a year.

The *.img format works on all of the newer (Colorado (January 2008, BTW) / Oregon / Dakota / 62 / 78) handhelds since introduction. What surprised me is how many of the Garmin automotive nav units (e.g., 205, 360, 370, 500/550, 7x5 and 1xxx series models) are capable of handling alternative map files from sources like OSM. Seems like most everything they are releasing is starting to show up with easy *.img support from sources like gpsfiledepot and OSM.

If Garmin decided to lock down use of *.img files to something even more proprietary (ala TomTom), or switched formats altogether, we'd never hear the end of it.

Again: While TomTom heads one way, Garmin seems to be headed the other.

 

[gatorguy]

...Garmin has used the same map format (with occasional updates) for longer than TomTom has existed as a company.

Garmin started in 1989 (actually as ProNav, later renamed Garmin) while TomTom began in 1991.

TomTom Navigator released in 2002, TomTom Go in 2004 (prior to Garmin's CityNavigator mapping). In fact Garmin's first street nav product, the StreetPilots, weren't available until 2005. So in actuality, Tomtom began selling pnd's for road use before Garmin.

 

[Entropy]

The *.img format works on all of the newer (Colorado (January 2008, BTW) / Oregon / Dakota / 62 / 78) handhelds since introduction. What surprised me is how many of the Garmin automotive nav units (e.g., 205, 360, 370, 500/550, 7x5 and 1xxx series models) are capable of handling alternative map files from sources like OSM. Seems like most everything they are releasing is starting to show up with easy *.img support from sources like gpsfiledepot and OSM.

If Garmin decided to lock down use of *.img files to something even more proprietary (ala TomTom), or switched formats altogether, we'd never hear the end of it.

Again: While TomTom heads one way, Garmin seems to be headed the other.

My point is that the IMG format is 100% proprietary. The only reason third party map sources exist for it is that Garmin has not changed the format significantly since its creation over a decade ago, permitting it to be reverse engineered. Garmin has not done anything to enable third-party creation of .IMG format files, and in fact if the author of cgpsmapper lived in a country where Garmin had influence, they probably would have sued him.

If someone wanted to reverse engineer the TomTom map format, they could, however:
1) The format has existed for far less time than Garmin IMG
2) It seems like TomTom is willing to make more significant compatibility-breaking changes to the format
3) There's more incentive for reverse engineering the Garmin map format thanks to the fact that there are far more high-quality free data sources that are usable on Garmin units (TomTom users don't have any need for topo and little need for hydro), and many Garmin units sell without included maps, whereas TomTom units always include an up to date (at the time of sale) map that supports all features the unit is capable of.

The only official support of third-party map sources I know of is the addition of Garmin Custom Maps to the Oregon/Dakota/Colorado series (actually they might not have added it to the Colo as they're not maintaining that unit particularly actively.) GCM effectively consists of support for a very limited subset of Google Earth KML overlays, specifically:
JPEG only
Limit of 100 map tiles per unit
Limit of 1 megapixel per map tile
No SuperOverlay support

Edit: As far as CityNavigator and such - Garmin has been offering units with some form of mapping capability (just not road autorouting) for longer than that. My eMap was purchased in 2002 and used .IMG format maps, and it was a second or third generation mapping unit. (Preceded by the early GPSMAP units). Garmin did topo, roads, and hydro for a while, and then later added autorouting info. Maybe not longer than TomTom has existed as a company, but still, Garmin has been offering units with mapping support but no included maps (providing significant incentive for format reverse engineering) since the late 1990s.

 

[canderson]

Garmin has not done anything to enable third-party creation of .IMG format files, and in fact if the author of cgpsmapper lived in a country where Garmin had influence, they probably would have sued him.

Sued on what grounds in particular? I have spent some time researching some of Garmin's IP, and as far as I can tell, the *.img format is not covered under Garmin patent.

At any rate, if you're prepared to pay for Garmin's application, you can create and distribute all of the *.img maps you like. MapSource Product Creator - Garmin Developer For that, you get an incredible level of support. The $5K entry fee is peanuts for a low cost startup, and an easily lost line item for a commercial mapping venture. Here are a few of the things that have been created with that tool: Third Party Mapsource Developer Page

I don't see TomTom offering anything of the sort at any price, so that rather puts their business models at odds as I've stated before. Over time, Garmin is becoming far more flexible in its approach to the market -- something I'd have never thought possible only a few years ago.

As I say, Garmin is attempting to make this kind of customization easier (either by not pursuing their own IP interests, if they actually could) or by making the tools available for others to do so.

Point to a single point of congruence between the two companies' approaches...

 

[Entropy]

Sued on what grounds in particular? I have spent some time researching some of Garmin's IP, and as far as I can tell, the *.img format is not covered under Garmin patent.

At any rate, if you're prepared to pay for Garmin's application, you can create and distribute all of the *.img maps you like. MapSource Product Creator - Garmin Developer For that, you get an incredible level of support. The $5K entry fee is peanuts for a low cost startup, and an easily lost line item for a commercial mapping venture. Here are a few of the things that have been created with that tool: Third Party Mapsource Developer Page

I don't see TomTom offering anything of the sort at any price, so that rather puts their business models at odds as I've stated before. Over time, Garmin is becoming far more flexible in its approach to the market -- something I'd have never thought possible only a few years ago.

As I say, Garmin is attempting to make this kind of customization easier (either by not pursuing their own IP interests, if they actually could) or by making the tools available for others to do so.

Point to a single point of congruence between the two companies' approaches...

Possibility 1) (I can't confirm this) - Most software licenses contain clauses regarding reverse engineering. 90% certain MapSource's license has this (it's pretty much boilerplate). I would not be surprised at all if the maps themselves have similar licensing clauses.

Possibility 2) Some manufacturers like to add a little weak encryption (even XOR fits the bill legally) in order to invoke the DMCA's anti-circumvention clauses. This clearly falls into the "interoperability" exceptions from the DMCA in my opinion, but when it comes to large company vs. independent developer, it's tough to fight this battle.

Last but not least - between IMG format changes and other things (the way this is worded and the lack of real details implies to me there are lawyers involved...), the author of cgpsmapper has actually stopped development - Yahoo! Groups - So whether it be via lawyer or technical cat-and-mouse, Garmin is clearly doing something to make things difficult for third-party mappers.