LIVE Services in Boston / HD Traffic on my 2535M

[dwdionis]

Hey everyone,

So I bought a TT 2535M about 2 weeks ago, and its been working decently.

My question arises from the irregular connection time to LIVE services / HD traffic.

Sometimes it might take 2 minutes to connect, sometimes 10+ minutes

Is this normal? I know users from Boston post here, so maybe they have similar experiences?

Also, out of curiosity, where/how does HD traffic get its traffic data and delay estimates?

 

[mvl]

The LIVE outages are due to AT&T's 2G network. AT&T shuts off the 2G network in areas when their 3G is overcapacity.

I've had similar issues with a GO2535M LIVE, a GO740, and a Garmin Nulink 1695. All use AT&T 2G and have all the outages in the same busy times/places.

If you need more reliability in HD traffic, consider the iPhone app. It runs on AT&T's 3G network (assuming you have a 3G iPhone) and/or Verizon's 3G network, both of which are much more reliable than the AT&T 2G network.

 

[gatorguy]

I often had connection issues with the TT740 here in Florida, probably at least once a week. But I haven't had the same issue with the Garmin 1695, which has been amazingly consistent. In fact it's unusual if full connected services, including traffic, aren't ready to roll before I can leave the driveway, 30 seconds or so. Perhaps Boston is less reliable.

 

[offthegrid]

I'm not buying the 'AT&T' network is the issue on this. I have rarely seen Garmin connected users complain about these issues while TomTom users regularly have complained about the spinning wait, wait, wait, wait, wait -then nothing.

TomTom HD Traffic gets its info from TomTom users stuck in traffic.

 

[mvl]

There's an additional bug with app 9.x on the GO740, that is the source of most of the Tomtom-related complaints. But since the op was not on app 9.x, I think it's the overall AT&T issue.

AT&T starting to get pretty bad in certain spots. For example, you get a total 2G blackout near Fenway park during many redsox games. Right where all the traffic is.

I'm really hoping that Tomtom Android app shows up soon so I can ditch the 2G 2535 LIVE.

 

[canderson]

I'm not buying the 'AT&T' network is the issue on this. I have rarely seen Garmin connected users complain about these issues ...

Just have to be in the right forum.

I find it very interesting that no new nuLink units have been introduced since the 1690/1695 models -- back in late 2009. Whether the service or the business model, it certainly wasn't working out for Garmin.

 

[gatorguy]

The 1695 was intro'd just a few months ago, and it is a significant improvement over the 1690. But the general idea that 'live" devices are not the way forward is probably correct. Garmin and TomTom have different views on those.

 

[Andy_P]

TomTom HD Traffic gets its info from TomTom users stuck in traffic.

...As well as all the other phone users on the same network AND all the other 'normal' traffic news sources.

 

[canderson]

The 1695 was intro'd just a few months ago, and it is a significant improvement over the 1690.

Apart from the addition of the Traffic Trends stuff that they didn't have back when the 1690 was introduced, it just looks like an "XXL" version of the 1690. What else did they do to the 1695?

Still, it seems odd that they're not offering NuLink on anything else. You'd think there would be some $ advantage in a larger installed base to spread the cost of the required server infrastructure. Whatever disadvantages exist for Garmin to operate the system seem to be outweighing that.

 

[gatorguy]

The newest connected/live model from Garmin is the 2390, already announced for Europe. I expect the US release within a few weeks. This one is unique in that it offers actual traffic camera views, a new feature of Garmin's nuLink services. This gives a user visual confirmation of reported traffic conditions, something pnd users often complain they can't be sure of.
https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=134&pID=73472

As for current 1695 features not offered on the 1690, there's prompted navigation (up to three visual color-coded route choices from the same screen), map themes, similar to the TT feature on the older GO models, the myTrends and trafficTrends you already mentioned, more map detail/street names than the older 1690 offers, advanced weather radar and traffic camera alerts, all offered on a 5" display.

 

[canderson]

The newest connected/live model from Garmin is the 2390, already announced for Europe. I expect the US release within a few weeks. This one is unique in that it offers actual traffic camera views, a new feature of Garmin's nuLink services.

After the Europe-only announcement in mid-May, I didn't realize that there was ever going to be a 2390 here, but after your prompting, I see they are taking pre-orders at some U.S. retailers for some future date. There's also a 2320 (regional Euro maps) and 2340 (full W. Euro maps) out there somewhere, and the 2390 gets the whole continent. I think it was in the reading about the regional / western stuff that I got the impression that it was only for that side of the pond. Here's hoping we don't ever get 'regionalized'.

As for the realtime cams: Now that could be some entertainment value, although at that level of interaction, I think I'd want to leave that to a 'navigator' in the other seat. It will be interesting to see how Garmin gets access to the cameras here in the U.S. There's a HUGE hodgepodge of agencies placing them here, and they're not all public.

 

[offthegrid]

Phone users on the same network? Not in the USA. They get all their data from TomTom users. They do not get any phone data in the US. They have no agreement with any carrier here. That's public knowledge which is why I term it HD Traffic Lite because that's exactly what it is.

The only other data they may use is from public sensors and Navteq owns some of the traffic sensors so in some cities that means NADA for TomTom outside of TomTom users. Boston and Providence for instance have no public sensors they are owned by Navteq/Nokia.

I'm not sure who they get accident reports from but that would have to be either Clear Channel or Westwood One since they are the only national feeds for such info.

...As well as all the other phone users on the same network AND all the other 'normal' traffic news sources.

 

[canderson]

They have no agreement with any carrier here. That's public knowledge which is why I term it HD Traffic Lite because that's exactly what it is.

I'm guessing that you're both right. You're saying they get only TomTom data. I think the assumption is that those using TomTom's phone applications count, too...

 

[Andy_P]

The only other data they may use is from public sensors and Navteq owns some of the traffic sensors so in some cities that means NADA for TomTom outside of TomTom users. Boston and Providence for instance have no public sensors they are owned by Navteq/Nokia.

Do they not use all the normal traffic reports from sources like the police and government agencies as well in the US? (as used in the RDS-TMC receivers).

In the UK RDS-TMC is controlled by ITIS Holdings and although they are deliberately rather vague about their data sources, they say

(We use) inputs from fixed-sensor systems and incident reporting centres, to enable the production of the most extensive traffic information available.

AND they also have their own version of TomTom's probe data collection:

We pioneered the use of Floating Vehicle Data from cellular phone networks and GPS devices, to generate accurate traffic information.

I'm not sure what cellphone companies they use, (I found out it's O2 in Germany from a news item) but they seem to have "partnerships" with all of them.

 

[offthegrid]

This thread was about HD Traffic in Boston and my post stands.

They'd need hundreds of employees to monitor police and fire reports here - believe me they get that data from one of the two existing companies that provide that data nationally. Both own radio stations around the country. TMC in the US is only available through Clear Channel and Navteq - that's it.

Accident data can confirm probe data but it can't create flow data.

I'll repeat this for you - they have no floating vehicle data here in the US. They only use TomTom customers for traffic flow data.

They came out and said they would have several hundred thousand probes here when they announced HD Traffic in the US and they also said they had no cell phone traces agreement as they do in Europe.

There are NO public sensors available in Boston. Those sensors, which only cover a small part of Boston roadways, are owned by Traffic.com/Navteq/Nokia.

TomTom doesn't have a large enough customer base to make a national agreement with a carrier profitable for them The US is far larger than Europe physically.

About halfway down (link below) GPS Passion describes his conversation with Jeff Kim head of traffic for TomTom in the US.

GpsPasSion Forums - [TOPIC] TomTom's HD Traffic Service - 2011 Update

Here GPS Business News writes about the US not having any cell phone tracking.

TomTom Releases HD Traffic, New Connected PND in the US

TomTom Releases HD Traffic, New Connected PND in the US
At the CES trade show today TomTom is announcing the availability of HD Traffic, its home made real-time traffic information system, in the United States, as well as the first connected PND to support it, the GO 2505 M LIVE. The device will be available at retail stores and from online retailers in mid-2011 for $349 MSRP. A trial subscription of LIVE services will be available for free with each purchase.

HD Traffic
The US version of HD Traffic is however quite different from what it is in Europe. Unlike in the old continent (with Vodafone and a few others) TomTom does not have an agreement with a wireless operator to use cell data as traffic probes.

According to TomTom?s senior vice president of market development Tom Murray, in the United States TomTom relies on historical traffic data (IQ Route), ?several hundred of thousand traffic probes? and incident data. TomTom claims to provide traffic coverage for 6 million miles against half a million miles for TMC-based traffic information systems.

However, one might wonder how TomTom can provide accurate data for so many roads with so little GPS probes. In comparison, INRIX - with its XD Traffic product - claims to cover 450,000 miles with 3 million GPS probes. The first product reviews will tell how good the service is compared to what is available today in Europe where HD traffic provides a reliable service, especially for Estimated Time of Arrival.

 

[mvl]

Whatever they're doing is incredibly accurate in Boston. I haven't seen predicted traffic off by more than 3 minutes anywhere in Boston or LA since the May 22 upgrade annoucement.

They even have differing flow speeds being reported now for the 93 carpool lane vs the rest of the lanes.

I don't know how they could be this accurate without a substantial fleet of probes, but who knows...